FWD, AWD, RWD, it matters not...

"TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts." (thebloody) 01/11/2016 at 17:21 • Filed to: I have know idea what's going on

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You are all inferior if you only have a 1 speed transfer case.

#LORange4liveyo

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 01/11/2016 at 17:27

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Oh yeah? Well your mom is a low range transfer case!

Haha just kidding :P

HammerheadFistpunch > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 01/11/2016 at 17:30

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Lol chain driven.

TheVancen- In Pursuit of a Greater Payday and Car Parts > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 01/11/2016 at 17:31

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Low range and a winch.

Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 01/11/2016 at 17:31

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Which makes me wonder why we’re not seeing more electric (or more likely hybrid) “serious” offroaders.

100% torque at 0 rpm, perfect traction control, no torque discontinuities at gear changes, and ability to operate submerged without a snorkel all seem like pretty powerful arguments to me.

HammerheadFistpunch > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 01/11/2016 at 17:37

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Cost.

Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen > HammerheadFistpunch 01/11/2016 at 17:44

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Have you seen what a Defender or G-wagen costs? A few bucks on the powertrain isn’t going to make a lot of difference. And you’d save some of it back by eliminating your 2 speed transfer case :-). Or any transfer case,for that matter - one motor each end seems to be the way electric AWD is going. Submersion-proofing the batteries while still keeping them cooled might be interesting, but you wouldn’t need many batteries if you weren’t going for significant full-electric range.

Granted, the cost argument means it’s a while before we see a hybrid 4WD F150...

Will with a W8 races an E30 > HammerheadFistpunch 01/11/2016 at 17:53

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Why lol? Chain is the standard in transfer cases from old army jeeps up to modern BMW xDrive and all the current full sized pickups. It’s cheap, quiet, and effective. A discrete transfer case (not built in to the trans, like Audi/Subaru) without a chain is rare.

HammerheadFistpunch > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 01/11/2016 at 17:54

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You are confusing what it costs the consumer and what it costs the company. The goal is to get one high and the other low. The G wagen is winning this game.

HammerheadFistpunch > Will with a W8 races an E30 01/11/2016 at 17:57

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rare, but not as cool. Mine is gear driven.

Will with a W8 races an E30 > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 01/11/2016 at 17:58

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Package space is a big inhibitor for front drives. Not enough room in the engine bay to add a motor. Cost is also an issue, as is battery sizing - battery output capability is a function of capacity, so high motor torques require big batteries.

Some examples of electric rear axles on FWD soft roaders exist, such as the Toyota Highlander Hybrid AWD and its Lexus equivalent (RX350h?), but the motors are fairly small, and exist more for the purpose of slapping a badge on the trunk than for capability.

Will with a W8 races an E30 > HammerheadFistpunch 01/11/2016 at 18:00

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Built in to the trans? Cant even think of what has a gear case off the top of my head, maybe current 3 series and G37/Q60?

HammerheadFistpunch > Will with a W8 races an E30 01/11/2016 at 18:02

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Land Cruiser, separate t-case.

Will with a W8 races an E30 > HammerheadFistpunch 01/11/2016 at 18:06

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Nifty. Its like a mini 2 speed transaxle. Even has a synchro.

HammerheadFistpunch > Will with a W8 races an E30 01/11/2016 at 18:08

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yup, I can put the trans into N get the t-case into N and then into lo/hi and get the Trans back into drive without grinding at pretty much any speed up to 20 these days. Its fun if I’m in front of my friends with electronic t-cases that have to be stopped and in neutral, its a bummer if im behind them.

Andrew Pascarella > Will with a W8 races an E30 01/11/2016 at 18:41

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EVOs, DSMs, 3000GT/Stealth use gear t-cases, single speeds of course.

Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen > HammerheadFistpunch 01/11/2016 at 18:42

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I work in product development, and I used to work in automotive product development. I’m (painfully) aware of the difference between cost and price, trust me!

The goal is to maximise ((price-manufactured cost-other variable costs)*volume-fixed costs). There’s a lot of variables in there apart from manufactured cost.

For the higher end products, price and market share (=volume) are both largely driven by brand strength. Brand strength for premium 4WDs is at least in part generated by offroad capability, even though it doesn’t get used much by most people. I’m postulating (rightly or wrongly, who knows) that a version with enhanced capability due to electric traction would likely generate enough additional sales (of both itself and the lower range products) to overcome the cost penalty and generate more total margin.

The “add more cost to generate more sales” equation is actually pretty attractive for premium products. If you’re making $20k gross margin (made up number) you only need 5% more sales to justify putting $1k of extra cost in,and $1k is a lot of extra toys at OEM component pricing.

Whether it’d justify the engineering cost is another question, but we all know electrics’s the way everything’s going over time, they’re going to have to do it sooner or later. I’m just vaguely surprised we’re not seeing it “sooner”.

Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen > Will with a W8 races an E30 01/11/2016 at 18:55

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I’m not sure I buy the packaging argument: most “proper” 4WDs aren’t tightly packaged to start with,and things like the Volt or Prius have shown that a hybrid doesn’t need a monster engine bay.

And there are ways around the torque/current issue. For a start, battery output is a power issue not a torque issue.“Full torque at 0rpm” actually needs much less current than “full power at decent rpm”, since no actual energy is being imparted to the vehicle and you only have to supply the motor losses. Plus if you’re looking for short periods of high drain, supercapacitors work wonderfully as an auxiliary current source.

Cost’s clearly a factor, though I’d argue that there are places where that doesn’t apply so much (see response in separate comment).

The bigger factor’s probably engineering cost in overcoming the reliability issues of a new technology in a nasty environment. And the question of how much new car buyers really care about off road capability. I’d like to believe there’s a halo effect, but maybe not.

Party-vi > Will with a W8 races an E30 01/12/2016 at 07:46

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No old army Jeep has ever used a chain-drive transfer case. Every single GI Joe-riding Nazi-busting MB (and later M38s) used a Spicer T18 or T20 transfer case with man-gears. Jeeps used the Dana 300 until the mid to late 1980s as well.

adamftw > HammerheadFistpunch 01/12/2016 at 07:53

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The LT230 is also gear driven, and laughs at your case with it’s measly 2.5:1 low range ratio.

Will with a W8 races an E30 > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 01/12/2016 at 12:47

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It’s very difficult to package an electric motor in the same engine bay as a large RWD engine. Hell, it’s already really hard to just package a front axle. In something like a large truck, it would seem a bit easier, but that tends to not be the target market for electric axles. And an electric motor/gearbox assembly is bigger than the equivalent secondary axle, by a long shot. As for the torque/current issue, yes, power is the more precise term. BUT, unless you only want the motor to work at low vehicle speed, you’re going to need power. And electric motors do have an RPM cap that can quickly get in the way with too high a gear ratio, so power is very much a concern.

Cost is definitely a factor, although becoming less so. Electric axles are starting to show up in more and more places (XC90, Highlander Hybrid, 500E, Tesla, Bolt, NSX, 918, etc...), and I don’t there are many OEMs that don’t at least have a mule running around with one. I see them trickling down over the next decade across the industry. However, I find it very unlikely one will show up in a “serious” offroader any time soon. The technology is expensive, and much better suited to luxury cars where the secondary axle torque requirements are low, and (obviously) full electric vehicles.

Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 01/20/2016 at 09:38

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I have Quattro (Q5) and it laughed at the snow this morning. First time I’ve driven this car in the snow and it was confident.

I missed my analog Forester this morning when I tried to jink a turn and the ESP cut in and killed all the fun. Have to turn that stuff off next time.